Marketing Lessons of a Polarizing 70s Band

Susan wanted to have a public argument about a band that she loves and that Tyler hates – but this is a marketing podcast and – well – everything is marketing. So, how can their opinions about this particular band result in actionable marketing lessons? Somehow, someway, Tyler and Susan tie this back to some great ideas about how to increase engagement and build brand loyalty.

Give the episode a listen, pick a side and weigh-in in the comments below!

AI Generated Transcript:

TYLER:
You’re listening to the Omnicast . Thanks for joining us. I’m your host Tyler Jacobson with frequent guest Susan Berry of Hive Marketing.
SUSAN:
Hello. Tyler Jacobson and thank you once again for having me. This is the most exciting podcast episode in the history of time. Here’s your adrenaline going.

I’m beside myself with excitement.
I’m sitting on the edge of my seat. I’m drinking a beer to calm myself down.
TYLER:
Oh man you know I’ve got alcohol in here as well. Maybe I should have some.

Susan remind everybody of what it is that you do.
SUSAN:
Well my company is Hive Marketing and we help hotel owners management companies and brands improve topline revenue results. So if there are sales marketing and revenue strategy problems in your hotel I would love to help you fix them.
TYLER:
Wonderful. All right. This episode is going to be by the way. I don’t know. This could also be the worst episode of any podcast ever. It could be the best but it could. It could easily be the worst because I’m not even fully engaged on where I’m heading with this but I know. So really what. I don’t even want to give it away yet. I don’t know if we’ll just hold on onto it for a moment and we’ll we’ll we’ll reveal what this episode is about. Slowly but that is all to say that I am not prepared for this and I might come out on the other end in a completely different spot.
SUSAN:
Now. Interesting.
TYLER:
I’m not saying no I mean with the core the core opinion probably is not going to change.
SUSAN:
Well tell you what.
TYLER:
No no no no no no. You bet. But it’s my core opinion of all of this probably. It’s definitely not going to change. But in trying to apply it to marketing there’s going to be there’s going.
SUSAN:
I might I might be I might find a new respect but let me I will find a new respect for you if you can apply this topic to marketing because I’m not sure that I’m ready to do that. Everything is Mark. I am ready to talk.
TYLER:
That’s maybe the case that we have to make on this episode is that everything is marketing and that this this battle royale where they’re only only one of us will remain standing. It has to take place. But the challenge is having it take place in the context of a marketing of a marketing storyline. And and what are the gifts and what are the what are the problems everybody. Interesting I want I want I last time on the last episode that you’re on. I asked you to just visualize a funnel and we were going to we are going to now. Now I want you to visualize something else and close my eyes when I’m doing this year’s 1972.
TYLER:
The Vietnam War is raging. We have a we’re entering a recession right. Because isn’t that the malaise of the 70s.
TYLER:
Right.
TYLER:
There’s really a whole lot about the American story that that any artists can can take a lot from and really kind of hold the mirror up to us and show us who we are. And a couple of middle class white douchebags decide that they’re going to hold up that married. Couple college kids right. I think they were in college I don’t know maybe they were already in their 70s.
SUSAN:
I really don’t know.
SUSAN:
Six of one half dozen the other in terms of this conversation.
TYLER:
But Donald Fagan and Walter Becker you know they they have the bravery to put out extremely generic music for other white people. And here’s where we start.
SUSAN:
So that is your take. How is your dad a marketing lesson. Yes. For those following along at home Tyler and I have known each other for the better part of two decades.
SUSAN:
And in the course of this two decades we’ve had many ongoing arguments. But this is probably the most recurrent and that is and the most and I believe what.
SUSAN:
And the most entertaining and the most entertaining.
SUSAN:
I believe that Steely Dan is a national treasure a fantastic band worthy of admiration and respect and Tyler believes there generic division.
SUSAN:
I want to introduce you to a Web site. It’s called your logical fallacy is dot com because call it someone douchebags is ad hominem debate. Let’s get to the meat of the issue. What should you really be talking about.
TYLER:
OK. Let’s let’s let’s let’s get to the crux of this episode happening at all and why we felt the need to actually have this discussion in public. There’s a Facebook argument. You remember what the Facebook argument was about at this point. Again. Though it was and it didn’t start with Steely Dan I don’t even remember Susan. OK. And by the way for listeners who don’t they may not know may not know me as a human being they know me as a marketer. Ten people who listen this podcast actually they all know who I am. But my personal brand which has been very carefully developed over a series of arguments and Web sites and podcasts and radio shows I’m kind of I have a reputation of being pretty mean when it comes to criticizing people’s musical tastes.
SUSAN:
Yes. Yes you do.
SUSAN:
I’ve been trying to get better after that my husband was afraid for me this conversation with you because he was afraid you would hurt my feelings.
TYLER:
I know that that will not happen if I hurt your feelings it’s unintentional. Well I mean I I want to be funny probably but I don’t want to. I don’t actually want to hurt your feelings. Fantastic.
SUSAN:
I just want you to take your Asia C.D. and throw it away.
SUSAN:
I’m not going to happen and I have it on vinyl.
SUSAN:
And by the way that’s not Asia. The supergroup from the 80s it’s 88 A.J. the Steely Dan album Grindhouse.
TYLER:
Hey. Hey Nineteen on it. Is that correct.
SUSAN:
I think he knows that you have to wonder ceiling man.
TYLER:
No actually my favorite Steely Dan song is big black cow because really again 1970 to Vietnam you know we’re we’re a struggling nation and we’re trying to deal divides and and yet Donald Fagan comes in and he tells us what we all need to hear. OK make your big black cow and get out of here. OK. So again let’s. Can we Can we put this in a marketing context.
SUSAN:
I don’t know. OK. So.
SUSAN:
Here’s part of it. You were listening to your audience of your carefully curated brand which is musical snob slash dickhead. It’s really it’s fair.
SUSAN:
And I am part of that audience and I expressed a thought that seemed to differ from what most of the members of your audience feel.
TYLER:
So you deal with my perception and and then possibly created some cognitive dissonance that made me lean in.
SUSAN:
Yes. And what I said was that Steely Dan is subversive to the point of being more punk.
SUSAN:
Punk rock. That’s a bold statement. I’ll give you that.
TYLER:
Here’s I want to meet your dad just so I can punch him in the face because you just said I didn’t get it from my dad.
SUSAN:
I got her I don’t care where you got it from I wanted my dad to suffer from the family you said because I know that’ll hurt a little more. OK. Let me ask you a question.
TYLER:
I know you don’t have kids if you had a kid I’d want to go punch your kid because you were what you just said.
SUSAN:
I would definitely pass those gene lady on live.
SUSAN:
I don’t want to eat lunch. I wouldn’t punch your kids or your dad thanks you appreciate it. Here’s the question for you Why am I supposed to just let that fly right now and not.
TYLER:
The state state so we’ll get you he started just wanting to whack that hornet’s nest as you’re typing it you’re like this is gonna piss Tyler off so much.
SUSAN:
Yeah yeah. And I do that sort of thing.
TYLER:
So again going but knowing your audience really that’s really important. And then saying something not necessarily even to your audience but really you’re speaking to them because you’re speaking in a language you that you know they’ll hear and react to. So I think that there’s also a good marketing lesson in that if you know who you’re speaking to and you can. And again you don’t have to address them specifically but you can say something provocative that you know they’ll react to. Yes.
SUSAN:
And sometimes people are provocative in order because they have a separate agenda which in this case is getting this podcast on the air.
SUSAN:
That makes sense.
TYLER:
But we’re trying and I think that’s the important part. But again I mean saying something provocative that really you know speaks to your audience like when Donald Fagan as a 70 year old man wanted a 19 year old to take him away. And by the way he’s been 70 the whole time the whole time. And every one of these when he was in college in a band with Chevy Chase on drums he was 70 years old.
SUSAN:
I mean you’re not wrong. I don’t think that you’re incorrect about this. So here’s my question for you. Yes.
SUSAN:
I sigh.
TYLER:
I still haven’t mentioned Joe Strummer his name in response to your punk rock comment there and we’re gonna get to that.
SUSAN:
I don’t even know what to say because I knew I was pushing it there but I will tell you why I think that I think that your dislike of Steely Dan is because you’re viewing that band through a modern lens. And I think the difference is that when they came out on the scene the landscape was completely different. They’re the first band to ever do to use jazz and rock and roll together. They’re seriously the biggest musical snobs and purists in the history of time and I’ll tell you why in just a second. And their lyrics are truly fucked up. They’re extremely subversive. They write about topics in this sort of melodious elevator musings music sounding way that are like legit sinister. All of those things I think are arguments in my favor.
TYLER:
What you give me a sample of these subversive lyrics because I listened to their lyrics and unless I’m just taking everything at face value I’m like wow you couldn’t be like you’re making milk I already want to say but yes like like it couldn’t be more more toothless.
SUSAN:
OK so let’s start with their name Steely Dan is a vibrator isn’t it.
SUSAN:
Oh yeah. Allow people to talk about sex toys on podcasts in the 70s.
SUSAN:
They didn’t have podcasts in the 70s. Right.
SUSAN:
I made my point for me.
SUSAN:
I don’t know where to go with that. All right.
SUSAN:
Things are even storms that are about like pedophiles and fucked up people and sort of the marginal and sinister characters of society. And I mean this is when people were writing disco songs about like it’s raining men. You know I think the subject matter of Steely Dan lyrics is extremely interesting. Pearl of the quarter is a great example. And one of my favorite seal opinions on it’s about a sex worker and someone who comes back to see her again and again and again and again there’s not a lot of songs like that in the 70s. Kay.
SUSAN:
Punk rock. I don’t know.
TYLER:
Maybe it is the point being that you maybe and maybe or maybe it’s you know Judy’s been working for the drug squad for you know for the bankers. I don’t know.
SUSAN:
I would just say if you gave the lyrics the listen you would encounter unsavory characters that you would be surprised but you wouldn’t be a surprise now because you’re viewing it through a modern lens.
SUSAN:
But when they came on the scene this was like new fresh and unheard of. No it’s OK. All along.
TYLER:
Not running down his nose and you know eyeing little girls and no no no what about Uncle Ernie by the WHO which I believe. I believe it predates I think Tommy predates Steely Dan and Uncle Ernie was it can you a guy who had a summer camp or he was molesting all the kids. Like I mean you’re gonna find the Beatles have songs I like unsavory characters.
SUSAN:
But I think the difference here is the juxtaposition of this sort of music that sounds very unthreatening and lives with the this incredibly crazy subject matter.
TYLER:
I will challenge you right now. All right. Let’s go to the bonus round. So. I have a question for you too so don’t forget I won’t forget all I ask. OK. All right. But I’ve always said the reason I love soul music is the same reason that I love the Smiths because the lyrics are very sad. Sometimes they’re talking about some very traumatic subject matter but the music is very peppy and uplifting. I mean again being a soul deejay I can tell you that you have danced to more songs about guys beating up women. Yeah. Just through soul music and you’re talking about 1962 probably to about 1974 there is a great song out there called Oh I’m gonna fix you good. Oh it’s such a great song. It’s so upbeat and it’s all about when you get home I’m going to beat you up because I know you’ve been running all around town yeah.
SUSAN:
So that’s the girl group and it’s like it was something something when he hits me you know what I’m talking about. I can’t know anything about Vinny kissed me. And then asked me maybe I don’t know the same thing.
TYLER:
There’s a song called me man by daddy Harris. Love that song and it’s all about like I really can’t quit you even though you’re really mean to me and you use me. Yeah. So it’s not new. I mean that’s not inventive. But again if we take this back to a marketing lesson yes that wasn’t really I mean outside of the soul John Ray and I’m sure that you had some southern rock stuff that was kind of like that maybe I don’t know and this might be a little early for Southern rock at the beginning of the 70s. So yes Steely Dan is maybe bringing that to a culture that hadn’t quite had that delivered to them by another white guy. Right. They’d only heard that that from others from other segments of society that didn’t necessarily reflect who they are so I think you’re right.
SUSAN:
Ok thanks I appreciate that. Here’s my question for you and. I’m not exactly sure how to ask this but.
SUSAN:
Because it’s so subjective. But when Wendy when you decide that you like or don’t like music is it about I don’t know like what it sounds like or the genre. Is it about the lyrics more.
SUSAN:
Is it about what it evokes emotionally. Or are you even able to answer that question like for me it’s typically about what it evokes emotionally plus lyrics the music part.
SUSAN:
Of course I want to like what it sounds like but I’m not a musician so I don’t know if someone’s a good musician or not. I can’t tell.
TYLER:
I don’t think it matters. I don’t think it matters for somebody to get a musician or not for whatever that’s worth. I was lucky and you know what. Yes this is how it appeals to marketing. Right. There’s gonna be a translation you heard the marketing and I’m starting to really believe that virtually everything that we experience comes back to feel for us. Everything is about feel. So you can go into that feel and you can try and find data that back ends it right. Oh I feel this way because X Y and Z makes it make sense to feel that way or sometimes but and and I think that we’re gonna be looking for evidence as to why we feel that way and to justify why we feel that way. So that’s totally right on. So when we talk about this Steely Dan doesn’t feel right to me. Now I can go out there and I can tell you it’s because all I can picture are fern bars and dudes wearing.
SUSAN:
The Regal ego absolutely right Larry.
TYLER:
Right Larry Three’s Company. That’s all I can picture is like that guy hanging out and being cool right. And you know Rupert Holmes Pina Colada song like it all kind of falls into that same space for me where it’s like Wow you’re a bunch of boring garbage people you are.
SUSAN:
I like all of that. Rock music first of all. But that’s not like some rock by the way. That’s not the emotion that is evoked for me. And so I’ve had sort of a two part road that I want to use to explain this to the first part is that musical proficiency does not mean much to you or I.
SUSAN:
It does mean a lot to some super music nerdy people with whom I have spent a tremendous amount of time in my life. So like serious classical musicians and serious non classical musicians who are like fully in it for the proficiency for lack of a better word.
SUSAN:
And those dudes like Steely Dan because they think they’re super proficient talented musicians. But what’s interesting is that Donald Fagan and Walter Becker Walter who. Would not play on their studio albums they would audition sometimes up to 50 guitarists for a specific song to perform one song on one record like that’s how big of you know purists they were that they wanted the sound to be so perfect. I think that’s such an interesting thing. That’s not why I like them but I just think it’s an interesting piece of information like I feel like it’s the antithesis to a punk rock argument. I think it’s not necessarily the antithesis and here’s why because. They were in it for the expression of the music not for making themselves famous not for the performative aspects of writing a song but because they just could not help.
SUSAN:
Wanting to get Hey Nineteen out on the page.
SUSAN:
Bullshit bullshit bullshit. Why.
TYLER:
Because Interpol when they came out Depeche Mode when they came out. Both of them very intentionally wanted to hide who they were. They did not want people to know them as faces they wanted people to know them as through the music first. So even finding a photo of Interpol was was pretty difficult early on. And same with Depeche Mode when they were doing people are people like you heard that all over the radio but you didn’t see videos and things like that. It wasn’t as or at it wasn’t very highly distributed distributed. We don’t have that same level of anonymity with the members of Steely Dan and by the way the two primary members of Steely Dan even though that there were regular other people including Bernard Purdy who is just an incredible drummer who says that he drummed on Beatles albums. I mean you had other people in the mix so but I would say that you said like you said they and they would audition up to 50 people who were those 50 people and why aren’t we knowing their names. Especially if they nailed Hey Nineteen so well.
SUSAN:
Okay I’ll take that. That’s a good point. That’s a good point. All right. So here’s the other thing. OK.
SUSAN:
So I said that the proficiency of these good dudes is one of the reasons why all these nerdy music people that I’ve hung out with my entire life were super into them. But the reason I’m super into them is because of what was going on in my life when those songs were introduced so I got to bury them. That’s the thing.
SUSAN:
It’s the emotional evocative ness of a particular song being attached to a moment in time.
SUSAN:
Pearl of the quarter. I mentioned earlier is a fantastic Celine Dion song made all the more fantastic because I heard it after going on a trip to New Orleans with some friends.
TYLER:
So if have you ever attempted to separate yourself from that subjectivity and tragically Han that’s not what I asked. I know you can’t. I recognize that but have you ever attempted to. Have you ever attempted to hear it as with fresh ears since. So you can’t release yourself from that. You simply can’t. You haven’t even attempted to release yourself from that subjectivity and I don’t know that you could. I don’t know. I don’t know that you could. I’ve definitely had to go back and re-evaluate some of the things that I love simply because they exist in a certain point of time and go. I mean have you ever watched a movie that you’re like Oh man I watch this movie like 300 times when I was 12 years old. I want to go watch it again. You know go oh boy and didn’t age well.
SUSAN:
Yeah yeah. I don’t know why I like it bad happen right.
SUSAN:
I I think that I don’t know how to exactly articulate this but I think that there is something different about how music lives and memory and how a movie or not a novel or whatever it is. I’ve read many novels many many times that don’t I don’t have the same feeling for them as I’ve done before. I don’t think I have songs like that maybe I do.
TYLER:
I should think about this more but I think that one I think it’s I think it’s absolute bullshit that we would even put the words punk rock and Steely Dan together and that that’s even a moment for for a topic of conversation.
SUSAN:
It’s fucking subversive is what I was going for.
TYLER:
It’s not subversive. It’s nice. No it’s not. I already gave you examples of how this was being done in other genres.
SUSAN:
It doesn’t matter it’s dead.
TYLER:
If you’re saying that they invented the genre by the way if you’re saying they invented the genre then of course they’re going to be the first ones to do it right.
SUSAN:
And is only our only one person allowed to be subversive anything before everything else is not subversive anymore.
TYLER:
It’s not subversive it’s defining that genre for all of the Larry’s from three companies.
SUSAN:
Well I think it’s two things. I think they defined a genre. Number one and I think I don’t need I don’t even know I don’t know enough about crap rock to have decided to define that genre. You continually revert to the logical fallacies instead of presenting arguments that are not attacks based on on ad hominem.
TYLER:
Characteristics. It’s all everything about this is subjective and that’s the beautiful thing about it. That’s actually why I enjoy arguing about No it is. I mean it’s it’s again. Let’s jump back here and let’s let’s tie this back into marketing because that’s what we’re trying to do. Yeah I understand you said actually there’s there’s two ideas here one is that we should have an objective. How do we know if we’ve actually completed this conversation to a an end that is acceptable. Every every campaign every every thing that we take on should have an objective and it should be defined upfront to action. It doesn’t necessarily need to call the action but it does need an objective because we are trying to solve for what. Why are we having this conversation and how do we know when we’ve actually achieved that.
TYLER:
Or if we’re on the road to channel or if we’re on the road to achieving it.
SUSAN:
OK. What we are trying to solve or is unsolvable and that is to make a square peg that into a round hole. But I think what we can solve for it is the marketing lesson in this. So do you remember earlier when we were talking about how the thing that I think you agree with me about this that the thing that makes you love a song is the emotion that it evokes it’s going to jump back to that.
SUSAN:
Yes and it’s subjective as you just said. So is there.
SUSAN:
A lesson here in terms of messaging around emotion that is objective or exclude exclusionary objective or exclusionary.
TYLER:
Yeah I need I need you to fill that out more for me.
SUSAN:
So in other words that says nobody likes dirty counters. This is the dumbest example I can ever think of. P.S. so bear with me. Wasn’t that a lighter hits.
SUSAN:
Like started counters.
SUSAN:
Nobody likes dirty counters. It makes everyone feel sad.
SUSAN:
Well except for maybe it doesn’t. Like if you’re a hoarder you’re totally cool with dirty counters. So a hoarder shouldn’t be marketed that way. You see what I’m saying this is the worst example I could ever think of. I got to think of a better one. But in terms of content or messaging that.
SUSAN:
You need to be careful not to cross someone’s emotional lines.
SUSAN:
They are subjective. I love the gymnastics involved my fans. This is so much fun.
SUSAN:
Try and go hard with you again. No. Let’s. Be. The worst show ever.
TYLER:
By the way I also love the Steely Dan song a hoarder wouldn’t care. That was my favorite Steely Dan’s.
SUSAN:
OK well it’s going to spit take. Really. Oh man am I even recording this. Yes I am. OK. Oh baby why.
SUSAN:
Our objective is is to write a Steely Dan song and have it there for her.
TYLER:
I’m not I’m not auditioning up to 50 musicians who you’ll never hear from again. That’s so bad. But let’s jump back to that because I do think that there is an important lesson for everything here right which is that one it is subjective and that’s actually why I love it. Arguing about this stuff because there’s not really and there’s not a right way. And so when you argue subjective things as is if they are objective as if there is a correct way to view these things the response is and I’m going to ignore that the response is what the fuck.
SUSAN:
I mean really putting a right. That’s right.
SUSAN:
That’s what I was trying to say about the dirty counters that I said it in the shittiest way possible. But yes we’re something as fact that is it’s subjective.
TYLER:
Yeah right.
SUSAN:
And was dirty counters the greatest hits album or was a studio proper sound of your head. Welcome. Got 15 minutes of comedy come actually hot.
TYLER:
We were about 30 minutes into this thing. All right. So but again this. Yes. So when you when you are taking something that’s subjective everybody can treat it as objective. Everybody can chime in and everybody wants to chime in because now you’re saying this is how it is. You either are on board in your life. Yep. See that’s how it is or you want to argue with it. Right but you’re compelled into action. So there there’s something there. There is there is there is some sort of marketing lesson and in their interest in just taking that position and holding strong to it and then backfill it and let everybody and let all those other voices be heard. That’s I think of what.
TYLER:
A product that has benefited from controversy Oh that’s benefited from controversy.
TYLER:
Well and so I was gonna say that that was one of the one of the things that was actually going to give him is when you are a polarizing when you when you’re polarizing and when you’ve taken a side on something and again you don’t waver from it. You are creating camps you’re creating tribes and you’re saying you either speak what you know we are a tribe that speaks together or not or not. When we go to two products Chick fil A I hate to say it but yes absolutely they have a benefit it but they’ve also probably they’ve been hurt from it as well. But those those people who are like I’m going to I’m going to keep eating at Chick fil A because they believe in the same things that I believe in. All right.
SUSAN:
Dad never. Yeah. What about people who deliberately stirred up controversy.
TYLER:
The only one I can think of is my pillow my pillow guy who’s a diehard Trump supporter.
SUSAN:
Oh I don’t know about that. I was thinking more like them. Carl’s Junior with their super pornography esq commercials right.
SUSAN:
So now you know people who thought they were hot wanted to eat Carl’s Jr. but then people who were like This is appalling.
SUSAN:
We’re talking about Carl’s Jr. is that maybe that’s an example of courting controversy in order to be to benefit your brand.
TYLER:
Yeah and I’m sure if we wanted to I’m sure we could find a bunch of examples of that that have taken place but a lot of them are kind of minor. You know these these things aren’t they don’t stick with us. They don’t necessarily shape our culture. So it’s it’s difficult for me to just sit here and recall it. But yes I think that that idea that like we’re going to take a stand and it will be controversial that’s why we’re taking a stand. I think there’s something there. I did want to jump back to feel though and I did want to talk and I and I want to talk about aspiration as well because I was speaking I had I had the pleasure of being able to sit with the CEO of Macintosh audio and the team behind Project USA. They make these great record players. And as we were talking the CEO of Macintosh audio His name is Jeff. He was like. He’s like It all comes back to you know does it feel good. And I’m like you know it was so nice to hear somebody in your position say that by the way because I went to the North American musician you know musical instrument merchants conference called Nam and it’s a big deal. And when I was there one of the things about me out was it all came down to black boxes and then the numbers attached to those black boxes. How many OEMs and how many amps and things like that. And it’s like I don’t care about that. I want to. I want you to evoke a feeling I want you to evoke a passion because that’s an important thing to me. At the end of the day I took Sara to a concert with this musician and this had to have been probably close to 20 years ago now too. And we didn’t really know what to expect and what we got was a very very proficient musician essentially masturbating with his instrument and I don’t mean that in a sexual way but I mean like he was he was just showing look at look at our technical I can be high. And the music was garbage. And it’s like I don’t care how technical you are I’m sure that’s I’m sure it’s impressing you and I’m sure it’s impressing somebody in this audience for the most part it’s just boring. Right. So you’re not making you’re not bringing me something that that lifts my spirit or lifts my aspirations my hopes and things like that it makes me feel anything at all.
SUSAN:
That’s the worst right.
TYLER:
Well that’s the opposite of love. It’s indifference. Steely Dan does not provoke indifference from me. Exactly.
SUSAN:
That’s why I think you’re just 10 minutes away from falling in love with Steely Dan I don’t know make you a mixtape this weekend.
SUSAN:
I think you’re real and in the years. OK. That’s a good song. Not only would you not like it.
TYLER:
It just doesn’t. It just doesn’t do anything for me it just doesn’t it doesn’t speak to me it doesn’t speak to my experience the musicianship doesn’t it doesn’t dry anything out of me. It doesn’t either. It doesn’t address my sadness my rage my pleasure.
SUSAN:
None of that.
SUSAN:
I think what’s funny is that like clearly I put on a show of being a rabid Steely Dan and but people don’t really have strong feelings about Steely Dan one way or the other. Like Steely Dan is background music it’s background music in your life.
SUSAN:
It’s only when I sat with a song gets plucked out of that background and given some sort of emotional context that that kind of music really makes a difference.
TYLER:
Don’t you think it almost makes me think that that’s why this is this. It always feels like bullshit because it is bullshit like you’re saying like nobody is like that. And by the way somebody is a rabid steely again fan. Oh yes somebody is right. I mean pick the band there’s somebody who’s you know if they’ve achieve any level of fame there is somewhere someone out there right now is like the world’s biggest enough Xena fan right. That exists. Yes. Yeah. It matters to somebody. But for most people it’s like how are you defending this blandness. How are you defending this 5 on a scale of 10. Right. Right. This is what we’re arguing about and you’re gonna defend it it’s not that we’re arguing it’s that you’re gonna defend that in a world where Joe Strummer lived. You’re going to defend Walter.
SUSAN:
And what I would say to that is I am ultimately defending the experiences that I have attached to certain songs that have made me love those songs.
TYLER:
And so that was where I was gonna go. Also in this I didn’t have many points. But you’re you’re complimenting them quite well. But one of them was when your product to which their music is a product and I think that’s a lot easier to do with art. But maybe maybe there’s other examples of it happening with product or service where it’s you know what I can actually even tell you when. But again it’s still art center never. But when it can represent something different than to somebody else. Right. Like it has a different apply application what they initially intended when they were writing those songs and the way that you’ve applied it and the way you interpret it are completely different. Now you own a piece of that in a in a completely different way than anybody else. It’s a very personal thing. Yes. Right. So the closer that the more that you can make that a part of your experience the more that you can interpret it in a very personal and unique way the more importance it has. Right. So again I don’t know how you can be marketing less than their I don’t know how you would leverage it honestly but yes I think that probably has to be.
SUSAN:
I mean think about things like Harley Davidson you know where people get bought in the operandi tattooed on their skin.
TYLER:
Yeah. So now. Okay. Yes. So it’s gonna come back to lifestyle branding. Any way that you can actually apply that lifestyle branding you’re going to have that thing and it means something different right. So Penguin PENGUIN is actually I’m wearing a penguin shirt right now there. So I. Will. They should sponsor me one so I don’t have to go spend money on Penguin stuff all the time but I love the fashion. And so now I apply that to me is that brand definitely represents me in some ways. It’s personal. I like it and it helps to find me and I even put on a different shirt. I don’t wear only penguin but I try to like a cowboy shirt from local Colorado brand called Rocky Mount yesterday. And and everybody from my wife to some friends they were like that looks good on you. And I went and put it on and I’m like just so it just doesn’t feel like me to the point that I even though every other people say it looks nice on me. I don’t want to try and buy it right. So Penguin has had some sort of access to who I am that say other brands even when I’m told it looks nice I mean they don’t have that same same accent saying What do you think it is.
SUSAN:
What do you think that brands speak. What speaks to you about it. Is it the styles of the clothes. Is it that they’re hard to find. Is it not it’s expensive or prestigious.
TYLER:
I think that there’s definitely something that feels very. And this is one of the. I don’t want a whole podcast talking about me and my own mind inside. I sort of do like I see your ideas right now. You know there’s a there’s a side of me that says tradition is just dead man’s baggage and it’s B.S. and we shouldn’t necessarily have to be indebted to traditions. But the other side of me is I think especially when it comes to fashion there you know I grew up thinking James Dean and Elvis looked really cool right. And so any of that kind of fashion that those fashion trends and those kind of accents that existed maybe mid 50s and have endured all the way through here. Like I like that. And I feel a lot more comfortable addressing some of that.
SUSAN:
Got it. That’s so interesting. OK. I don’t know Penguin except for I I mean I recognize that penguin right.
SUSAN:
So it wouldn’t have occurred to me that it’s sort of that continuity of style. That’s really cool that’s interesting.
TYLER:
Yeah.
SUSAN:
And so they’re like my Steely Dan real now ladies and gentlemen it’s come full circle. Thanks for tuning in and have a wonderful day. Real in in the year. No I’m not going to close it on that. You said Steely Dan a punk rock and god damn it. That is wrong wrong wrong wrong. It has more but I guess he learned to do verses. No you said you use the words punk rock because there’s no way in hell I would have ever entered those two words into a conversation about Steely Dan. You did. It.
SUSAN:
As a. It was an analogy. So I think what I said was their lyrics were some more subversive.
SUSAN:
Than punk. Who cares.
TYLER:
Do you still would like just to provoke me.
SUSAN:
Of course that was. Have you met me like the same person. Of course that was just provoking you. Come on.
TYLER:
I know I know. Okay. So. So again. Let’s let’s just try and sum this all up so we can get on with our fucking lives. Okay now let me say no. All right steely Steely Dan how Oh how. What are the marketing lessons one being polarizing.
SUSAN:
Being careful to recognize that people bring their own emotions and experiences to a product or song in this case it’s like why.
TYLER:
Be careful. Why do you use the word careful there.
SUSAN:
Because you might make an assumption that everyone feels one way about something and a don’t.
SUSAN:
For example when your friends posts about Steely Dan on your page they’re making the same the assumption that everyone in that audience feels the same way you do which is like dorky terrible awful. And then here I go. Maybe you’re up to provoke the crap out of everyone but you’re compelled to.
TYLER:
That’s your marketing lesson there. I don’t even know if it’s because it’s like it’s almost like invest in that right.
SUSAN:
Well I think doing the best you get depends on the audience because not everyone and certainly not in every situation would I be comfortable making that statement with a stranger.
TYLER:
I never would never. So on that story brand podcast there was an episode and they were talking about the best types of sales people and they went into all of these different kind of archetypes of sales people. And one was like the relationship builder and one of them was the. I can’t remember they had a bunch of them but one of they said which one sells the best and everybody you know thought it was gonna be the relationship builder builder and. Okay. So what’s the archetype that sells best the challenger. There you go. Yes exactly. And that’s the beauty. And so I think that’s where that aligns very. It’s like if you come in and you challenge somebody who’s beliefs you’re almost prompting them into action and going back to other podcast episodes when we were talking about branding a few episodes back we were talking about brands doing their own branding. And I said the thing that I don’t like about that is that when those brands show up and they want to be accommodating to everybody we are everybody’s you know provider of paper products and everybody right. No that’s not going to prompt me. And if you were there for everybody then then you’re very generically there for me. You’re not specifically there for me but if you can divide me into a camp but says no no you’re are people you’re going to get my attention or there’s a pull you in. Right exactly. All right. Totally agree. What else do we have. Or was that really it. I think that’s it but I think feels feels you’ll feel feel. Feel has every yes feel has something to do with this right. Yes in that might be the most important part of any interaction is does it feel right. Yeah I can make out and let people and let people come up to their own versions of when back in their own reasoning into it as to why they feel feel something. Because if you can make them feel positively about something then they will go out and do their own internal homework to try and establish to try and justify that feeling.
SUSAN:
Totally true I’m a perfect example of this today. I did all this homework to explain to you why Steely Dan is great when the bottom line is the songs bring back. Emotions and experiences that I had. And that’s it. I don’t care if they’re going to play their instruments or whatever other thing.
TYLER:
I didn’t even play their instruments almost their studio by the way they had like entered the audition up to like 50 people 50 people over every song and every instrument. All right.
SUSAN:
I want to make a suggestion for wrapping up this episode. Please please guys because we were so all over the place but because we also both feel very passionately about this topic. I think we should do a call for audience reactions so those when people listen to the podcast if they’ve got any marketing lessons from Steely Dan or probably more appropriately from Tyler’s and my argument about Steely Dan I would love to hear that. And then also when you and I post this on social I think we should ask people like what are the things that you think an argument about music that two people feel very differently about can teach you about marketing.
TYLER:
That’s a terrible question but I love that called action how it takes up four lines. I think it’s great. Right. No I. Yes. What can what can an argument like this actually what what is. Is there a marketing lesson. Yeah maybe we haven’t. Yeah I like that. OK can we just wrap this up. Oh my gosh this. This is at once wonderful. I imagine it’s probably boring as hell or it’s really exciting. I really don’t know.
SUSAN:
I think it’s gonna be a good test case to see and quite frankly I hope that it didn’t record and then we can do it again now that we’ve done one more time in a much more organized way.
TYLER:
I mean that’s the problem though is it’s like a two minute episode if we were to redo this because we’ve already gotten we actually went down that journey right. Yes. Do it again. I do. I do want to say that I’ve gotten feedback this week that from two to two separate people that they’ve been listening to the podcasts which seems like a big win for me.
SUSAN:
When I think it’s do it. I was. It’s funny when we were texting about recording these your voice was in my ears because I was listening to a couple of the most recent episode. So I was like Oh she can tell I’m listening to it. But then he sent me a text is it so weird.
TYLER:
So that’s actually it so it’s actually there might actually be people out there to give us some feedback on this and actually answer his question or what I guess what I’m saying is all of the people that we’ve got listening to the podcast I think this episode has ruined it. And I’ve probably lost all of the subscribers the audience has now left the building. All we know is something’s going to change.
SUSAN:
Fantastic. Well I can’t wait to hear the feedback. Thank you for indulging my desire to have this conversation and I hope we can do it again soon.
TYLER:
Thank you Susan very nice market and you can find Susan at high dash marketing dot com and please find me at Omni Phonak dot com and give us a review. Give us a rating send us feedback tell us tell us which one of us is wrong so we can just put this to rest. Awesome. All right. Bye bye.